Forum für germanisches Altheidentum

@Volk Veles,

for us the Eddas are holy songs directly from our Gods and what They say, that is important for us. The nature is a fact, but in nature are not only Gods, but also giants, so we cannot take the natural-law as our law.

Geza

@ Geza
I'm not telling to do it only and just. But who can vouch to the truth of those words? They were gone through the centuries, through the Christians' wars and inquisitions. IMHO, I won't make Edda's words like a Saint Holy Bible. Christians fell dawn in dogmas and limited rights and that's their fiasco. What we ought to make the "Heathen holy bible" for? Edda is as a memory of past, as a document shows us how did ancient Ancestors live. I'm sure we can find some secrets in this book but not like a saint songs. One more - it's IMHO.

But the hinduists are pagans and have holy books, too (the Vedas). So I don't see something that contradicts a collection of holy songs. Not the book itself is holy, but the songs in it are. In former times a poet (Skalde) or old people told this songs and passed down the songs in orally tradition. But today there are no people, who can make this and so we need this books.
We don't think, that there are christian influences and nobody, who says this, can proof it.

Geza

Yep, I'm agree. We have the similar book to Edda - Vlesbook. We use its texts in our heilwords.

Shchedry Velese,
Zri na ny s nebesi.
Zhitom odari,
Pole vozrodi,
Blago dari vesi.

These are words for heil of Veles (Odin). We sing this song on our holidays together. But unlikely you can find people who consider this book as an analog of the Bible.

Please, Albegast and the others, write in English here only. You´ll find the other postings in "Lagerfeuer".

I heared something about this Vlesbook, but I don't know much of this. Can You tell us more? When was it written, and dou You know, if it exists a german translation?

On the World Conference of ethnic Religions in Bologna there was a young women from an Ukrainian pagan group. She told me, that they found an old book with prayers, songs and myths of pagan gods. It is handwritten around the 17. century and they use it for their rituals. But first they let it translate in modern russian language.

I wish, I would have a copy of this book. And of Vlesbook, too.

Geza

It is not the Edda itself that is sacred.
The texts in the Edda are, as far as us is concearned, revelations of the Gods. Whether one burns the book or whatever one wants to do with it, doesn't change anything about the texts. It is not the Book itself that is important but the words that are inside it. The book the Edda is just a piece of paper and paper is in the context of this discussion not of any importance.

>Shchedry Velese,
Zri na ny s nebesi.
Zhitom odari,
Pole vozrodi,
Blago dari vesi.<

Is this saying to Veles in harvest time?

Look over here
Entschuldigung, but this is Wiki too and I can say there is no full information about it. Soon I shall post more our info from Vadim. We use this book (words from there).
http://paganism.msk.ru/liter/veles01.htm - some photos of this book.
http://lib.ru/HISTORY/RUSSIA/veles.txt - text on Old Russian (Slavic).

The main problem is - this book is somewhere in Germany. In 1941 it was hidden by SS (or Ahnenerbe) forces and picked up to Germany. Where does it situated - nobody knows but the first official remembering in Russian Empire documents about this book is XVI-XVIII cent. Since the Christianity was completely strong on the Russ territory.
The Vleskniga (Veles Buch) was written by our "volhvs" in V-IX cc.

Zitat:Is this saying to Veles in harvest time?

We often song glory and hail to Veles in different times - in the spring, int he summer and so on around the year. Veles was a ancient cult of Russes and Slavs, simple village folk loved Him and respect too, He had helped us every day. In big towns our konungs had Perun cult.

Wikipedia says, that all scholars have found out, that this book is a false:

Zitat:Opinions about the authenticity of the book are divided. Most of the scholars that specialize in the field of mythological studies and Slavic linguistics (such as Boris Rybakov, Andrey Zaliznyak, Leo Klein, and all Russian academic historians and linguists) consider it a forgery[1]. Those scholars claim that the thorough analysis of the book shows that it was written sometime in the 20th century. The history of the book can be reliably traced only as far as mid-1950s, when the transcribed book and the photograph of one of the planks first surfaced in a San Francisco-based, Russian emigrant newspaper. Some scholars believe that the entire book was a product of collaboration of the editors of this newspaper and Yuriy Mirolyubov, who later claimed to have found the book. Others believe that either the entire book or the only plank available, were forged in the early 1800s by the Russian collector and forger Alexander Sulakadzev. Finally, some speculate that there is a possibility that Mirolyubov found one or several pages of the Book of Veles and falsified the rest of the text to fit his theories about early Slavs.

The book is written in a language using for the most part Slavic roots and different affixes found also in old East Slavic language. Consequently, a large part of the book's text, once transcribed into a modern alphabet, is readable by modern speakers of Slavic languages. However, professional linguists and historians, particularly the specialists in ancient Slavic, question many features of its language — vocabulary (modern or medieval Slavic words occasionally and unwittingly used in place of their ancient equivalents), spelling, phonetics (distinct reflections of the nasal vowels, both following Polish and Serbian patterns in different places, the haphazard handling of reduced vowels, etc., etc.), grammar (grammatical forms incompatible with early Slavic languages, combinations of affixes that contradict each other in meaning), etc. These features seem to indicate that the text was artificially "aged" by someone with imperfect knowledge of ancient Slavic, and cannot be adequately translated because of lack of any consistent grammar system. In the words of the philologist O.V. Tvorogov:

This analysis leads us to a definite conclusion: we are dealing with an artificial language, "invented" by a person unacquainted with the history of Slavic languages and one who could not create his own language system.

Zitat:Es gibt unterschiedliche Meinungen über die Echtheit des Buches. Nahezu alle Wissenschaftler jedoch, betrachten es als Fälschung. Die Geschichte des Buches kann nur bis Mitte der 1950er Jahre ernstzunehmend zurückverfolgt werden, als eine Abschrift des Buches und ein Foto von einem der Bretter zum ersten Mal in einer russischen Emigrantenzeitung in San Francisco erschienen. Einige Wissenschaftler glauben, dass das gesamte Buch Ergebnis einer Zusammenarbeit der Editoren dieser Zeitung und Yuriy Mirolyubov war, der später behauptete, das Buch gefunden zu haben. Andere glauben, dass entweder das ganze Buch oder nur das einzige erhaltene Brett von dem russischen Sammler und Fälscher Alexander Sulakadzev im frühen 18. Jh. gefälscht wurde. Schließlich gibt es noch die Theorie, dass Mirolyubov eine oder mehrere Seiten des Buches von Veles fand und den Rest des Textes fälschte, um seine eigenen Theorien über die frühen Slawen zu beweisen.

Das Buch ist in einer Sprache geschrieben, die der antiken ostslawischen Sprache sehr ähnlich ist. Daher ist ein großer Textteil des Buches, sobald er in ein modernes Alphabet übertragen wird, lesbar für Menschen, die die modernen slawische Sprachen sprechen. Professionelle Historiker jedoch, insbesondere Spezialisten der antiken Slawen, sind skeptisch gegenüber vielen Bestandteilen bzw. dem Sprachgebrauch der Worte (moderne oder mittelalterliche slawische Worte werden gelegentlich und unwissentlich anstelle ihrer antiken Äquivalente benutzt), das Buchstabieren, die Phonetik (fehlendes Verständnis für den Klang des 'f's, welches in urslawisch existierte, aber später verschwand, der willkürliche Gebrauch von unbetonten Vokalen etc.), Grammatik (grammatische Formen stimmen nicht mit frühen slawischen Sprachen überein) etc. Diese Besonderheiten weisen auf einen künstlich „gealterten“ Text von jemandem mit unzureichendem Wissen über die frühen Slawen hin. Mit den Worten des Historikers O. V. Tvorogov:

„Diese Analyse bringt uns zu einem endgültigen Ergebnis: Wir haben es mit einer künstlichen Sprache zu tun, „geschaffen“ von einer Person, die mit der Geschichte der slawischen Sprachen nicht sehr vertraut war und jemandem, der sein eigenes.. Sprachsystem nicht entwickeln konnte.

I think this, too, because the oldest stories in this book came from the Slaves in the 7th century befor our time. But the word "Slaves" comes first in the 15. century from the older word "Sclaveni" (that ist originally greek, skylabo, and means: I make war-booty). "Sclaveni" comes the first time in Jordanis "Getica" (6th century), and it is a word for the pagan peoples, because the christian people sells the pagans as slaves. The tribes in the east never called themselves "S(c )laveni" (= slaves), but use original tribe-names like Vends (Vandals), Vinedi, Goths, Gepides and so on.
The word "Slave" has nothing to do with "slawa" or "slowo", because the oldest forms always have the "c". The "c" was lost because the pronaunciation changed. In the oldest times they pronaunced the "c" like a "k", but later like a "z" and so it wasn't to hear.
The old chronists like Adam von Bremen and many others wrote, that the Wends are formerly called Wandals.
"Slave" today is only a name for a group of language, but this language came together with christianity, it isn't the original language from the eastern tribes. Cyrill and Meod brought this language from Greek and Bulgary to the tribes in the east, like the Romans brought their latin language to alle countrys, which formerly belongs to Rome like Spain, Portugal, France, Italy.

So a book, which has "slavic" language in a time before Cyrill and Metod cannot be original, must be a false.

I see it in the text, too, because there stands: >Wir beten den ersten Triglaw an, verneigen uns vor ihm, und wir singen ihm zu Ehre.< (We pray and bow to the first Triglav and to him we sing a great glory.)
But "Triglaff" isn't a slavic god, it is a greek name from Hecate (Tricephalos). Christian monks from the East-Church found in East-Europe a godess with tree heads and they used a greek name, to tell this (like Tacitus used latin names for germanic gods). The eastern tribes never prayed to a god or godess with the name "Triglaw" (or Triglaff). The Czech professor Zdenek Vana says this, too.
So the Velesbook cannot be an original, must be a false, I am sure of this. This may be the reason, that the original of this book was taken from the KGB and put it in a secret archiv of KGB.

Geza

Hail to you, Geza!

Well, I'd understood you right. But your categorical concepts have little reason. It's about Vlesbook and Triglav. The Velesbuch itself had to be a false, I don't know really. But when you got the summarized findings - I had been surprised how did you easy and skilfully compare very general images of the gods with Greek one. Three Faces/Heads is a rather common image. Remember Gods of Arkona with idols over there. We have another one image of the Three headed Snake "Zmei Gorynitch" who had fired mouth and fire-breathing. This image of an ancient God had covered and gone through the times like Veles and Perun were and are. I know that you recalled the parallels with the settlement of Greek culture in Russland but the Greek culture itself had made not Greeks by. It was the European folk Etruscans (who made the base culture in Rome).
So I'm sure, my friend, that you got hurry up with findings. And I'msure that the Triglav is (Triglaus, Trigelawus, Triglous, Tryglaw, Trimurti too) a common old Hindo-European name of the God of Three main Worlds. In Russ tradition is - Javь, Navь and Pravь.
Was the Velesbuch a false? This question is opened still in Russland too. Nobody knows really truth but we anyway use the texts from there. They are beautiful.
Look, it's something interesting. German folks had lost their own traditions but Edda had returned them back to German folks. Russian folks had lost their common believe but traditions had never gone away from them. So Velesbook is like a simple sample of skald songs. We don't need in the special book of the Russian traditions but don;t have common believe today...
Well, and what about the "slavs" and "slaves". Yep, I had noticed here this word game jumps but your version is looking true because we didn;t call ourselves as a "slavjane". Only Rusichi, Vjatichi and so on.
And KGB archives are still closed. Since NKVD close all the German archive after the war (with confiscated documents). But I can't NOT notice that all these facts and false with different book and runes, pagan and right-oriented organisations in Russland is a pre-rehearsal destabilization policies in my Vaterland. So when this pagan believe is running on with media but not so good colors by - we all know that we're keeping someone else. Divide et impera ...

I think, that for You the Bylinas are interesting. They have three heros, Ilja, Dobrinia and a third (name forgotten). Ilja is the same as Elias (bible), but the christians use Elias instead of the thundergod, Dobrinia is the wise God and the third is the God of fertility. The Varägans were Vikings and this three holys/gods are Thorr, Odinn and Freyr. Odinn ist the first and till today in russian language this word means: "first" (ore: One). In the Edda Ódinn is called "the first of the Aesir".

It gives some old mediaevel books (Ordericus Vitalis, Doderik), where they write, that the Liutizen (a so called "slavic" tribe) pray to Oden, Tor and Fro.
And later we find such gods as Svantevit or Cernebog. But Helmold of Bosau (12. century, manuskript from 15. century) wrote, that "Svantevit" came from "Sankt Veit", a christian holy. I think, it means "Sankt Vidr" (holy Vidr, Vidr = byname of Odin). Cernebog means only "God with Horns" and it is latin. Helmold used this as name for the devil, because dark pagan gods are for him devils. Belbog (Bielbog, Bielobog) is the same name as the nordic Baldr (changing the "a" to an "e", the same as in the nordic runes).

My opinion is, that all tribes, from the river Rhine to the Ural, had the same gods (sometimes a little different names because they used bynames) and this gods are: Ódinn, Thorr and Freyr (Picollos, Percunas, Potrimpos). This is the reason, that I am interested in old russian rituals, prays and so on, because I think, that the old russian paganism is the same as ist was in the north and in Germany.

So the Eddas can be the holy collection of pagan songs for the Russians, too.

Geza

The name of the third hero was Aljosha. "Ilja Muromez" is one of the Bylinas, another are for example the "Igor-Song" and "Sadko".

Zitat:And later we find such gods as Svantevit or Cernebog. But Helmold of Bosau (12. century, manuskript from 15. century) wrote, that "Svantevit" came from "Sankt Veit"

Geza, is it just a jump-game of the words or you really trust in this? =)
So every God or spirits who has his name with the first sounds like "sa-" or "se-" can be transcript to "Saint" ))) Don't you remember that the Christianity was very late religion after thousands years of paganism in the Europe? Of cause it was gonna be similar to paganism for win peoples' hearts. I can't even imagine how does Saint Veit could be a Svantovit (Svatovit, Zwetobochus, Suentebueck, Svantavit, Zwantevit). Or I did wrong understand you, my friend.

Zitat:So the Eddas can be the holy collection of pagan songs for the Russians, too.

Yes, you're right. I will take a word for me myself and I often sing glory and hail to German Gods (German names of our Gods), exactly when I use my runes.

Zitat:The name of the third hero was Aljosha. "Ilja Muromez" is one of the Bylinas, another are for example the "Igor-Song" and "Sadko".

Aljosha ))) yep, he is. But they are form a real story of "Saint Vladimir" period in 10 cent. The bones of Ilja Murometc are really exist in one of our museums.

Old picture:


We have different heros in our tails and bylinas. As usual christians had changes their real names to their (jewish, greek and rome).